these are all civil wars. they all had different causes but there was absolutely no reason why south africa wasn't going to go that way. i mean there was nothing inevitable about the way it came or turned out. and i think he's personal leadership, his personal skill, as a politician was really what did, what made the difference. i mean during those years before he became president, when he was negotiating with the white government, he was having to juggle not only extreme whites who wanted to kill him, but moderate whites who wanted to negotiate with him and then on the anc side there were extreme blacks who wanted can carry on the armed struggle and moderate blacks. his party was driven with factions as well and it was only his own, what i think was the difference between the way south africa went and the way other countries went was his own personal leadership skills. jon: yeah and amazing that he developed those skills in the way he did because most politicians kind of learn a little bit at time on the job,